You learn something new every day: apparently we've all been pronouncing "Beltane" incorrectly. Also, another generation of pagans continues to interpret peasant celebrations from a relentlessly Freudian standpoint, but that's old news.
Don't listen to the hippie nonsense. Stay punk. Think of Johnny Thunders. Mick and Keith. Block it out!
Don't listen to the hippie nonsense. Stay punk. Think of Johnny Thunders. Mick and Keith. Block it out!
I like your phrase in this, "Don't listen to the hippie nonsense. Stay punk"
ReplyDeleteThat about sums up my spirituality for me. Caint agree with this more.
((bow))
That is just too much. ROFL!
ReplyDeleteHere's my question: who was the idiot that decided it would be a good idea to spell the names of these holidays other than how they sound? It would have made a lot more sense to write "Belchena" if that's how you pronounce "Beltane" and "Sowin" if that's how you're supposed to pronounce Samhain.
ReplyDeleteI know that they come from Old Irish but if anything that makes the chosen spellings in English even more atrocious. When transliterating a word from one language to another nobody in their right mind keeps the spelling the same if in the original language the letters sound completely different.
I'm not an expert, but it's at least partly because of the Romans. After the introduction of Christianity, it was considered pagan to write in ogham (which is tailored to the particular sounds of the Gaelic languages). So the Roman alphabet became the standard. Why the Roman letters aren't used more phonetically, however, I don't know.
ReplyDeleteAlthough it can be extremely confusing at first, there is an internal consistency to how letters are used in Gaelic languages. It's just like French, or English really.
Also, "sowin" is the Scottish pronounciation of Samhain, while the Irish pronounciation is "saveen."
From what I've learned of modern Irish so far, "m" in the middle of a word often has a "v" sound, as in Samhain. (Or Amergin. I've been saying that one wrong for a while!) "T" in the middle of a word often has a "ch"-ish sound, and "e" at the end of a word has an "uh" or "yuh" sound, so it makes sense that Beltane is "belchenuh." Caolte is another name that is pronounced similarly, as "celch-uh."
/unsolicited facts
And it looks like I've been misspelling "pronunciation" all my life too. Damn it.
ReplyDeleteConsidering it was the Irish who taught the English to write their own damn language, one could very well ask why we don't pronounce anything "correctly" any longer from an Irish perspective...
ReplyDeleteI can't really endorse what you've said about ogam here--the simple fact is, the Irish were largely illiterate in the pre-Christian period, and what literacy they did have and employ (i.e. ogam) came as a result of direct contact with Latin and Latin literate theory--that's why there is an aicme dedicated to vowels only, for example. As the technology of Latin literacy spread amongst the Irish, they soon became experts at it, and then adapted it to a new cipher for their own language, with some differences (e.g. the punctum delens used as an indicator of lenition, etc.). And, if one knows how phonology works, Irish (at every period) is entirely logical and consistent in its sounds (though not always in its particular grammatical rules).
Also, you got it backwards: in Modern Irish, Samhain is "SAW-win," whereas in Scots Gaelic it is "SAW-vin." In Old Irish, it should be "SOV-win."
As to the matter of "why doesn't it look like it sounds" for English speakers--blame the Brits. Gardner and his ilk took over the spellings of these things fairly closely to what they were in Irish, and then just pronounced it as if it was English (i.e. Gardner et al. didn't know Irish or care about it). What they should have done is adopt Manx spellings, which are pretty much phonetic English applied to Goidelic...but, they didn't.
Gosh...I guess in trying not to over-explain, I just end up sounding stupid.
ReplyDeleteI was aware of the consensus on that first point, but I've also heard some theories suggesting that ogham may have been initially modeled on the Elder Futhark or the Greek alphabet, rather than the Latin. Keeping that in mind (while assuming that first contact with the Romans was of a military nature rather than an evangelical one), I was speaking more to the possibility of how ogham might have continued to develop if the Latin alphabet had not been embraced by the ecclesiastical community in Ireland. But you're right, that's not the sort of idea I should just be throwing out there without a big disclaimer. Nor should I be repeating ideas whose provenance I can't rightly recall. (I think I may have been mixing up some McManus with some babble from the Auraicept na n-Éces. That's some definite derping on my part.)
There was a little voice in the back of my head telling me I was getting it backwards on the Scottish and Irish pronunciations. Thank the Gods you're here to keep my half-remembered notions from infecting the public.
That's a great point you make about how the Irish taught the English how to write in the first place, by the way. I was all, "Oh snap."
Considering it was the Irish who taught the English to write their own damn language, one could very well ask why we don't pronounce anything "correctly" any longer from an Irish perspective...
ReplyDeleteI can't really endorse what you've said about ogam here--the simple fact is, the Irish were largely illiterate in the pre-Christian period, and what literacy they did have and employ (i.e. ogam) came as a result of direct contact with Latin and Latin literate theory--that's why there is an aicme dedicated to vowels only, for example. As the technology of Latin literacy spread amongst the Irish, they soon became experts at it, and then adapted it to a new cipher for their own language, with some differences (e.g. the punctum delens used as an indicator of lenition, etc.). And, if one knows how phonology works, Irish (at every period) is entirely logical and consistent in its sounds (though not always in its particular grammatical rules).
Also, you got it backwards: in Modern Irish, Samhain is "SAW-win," whereas in Scots Gaelic it is "SAW-vin." In Old Irish, it should be "SOV-win."
As to the matter of "why doesn't it look like it sounds" for English speakers--blame the Brits. Gardner and his ilk took over the spellings of these things fairly closely to what they were in Irish, and then just pronounced it as if it was English (i.e. Gardner et al. didn't know Irish or care about it). What they should have done is adopt Manx spellings, which are pretty much phonetic English applied to Goidelic...but, they didn't.